Contrary to *your* beliefs, Vash x Milly and Meryl x Knives *CAN* be done well - that is, if a writer studies the cannon and takes several things into consideration, which is why MF was asking for advice. A good writer can write nearly anything and make it believeable. Making a post asking for advice from other fans on just how she might be able to pull it off is NOT A CRIME.
Time will tell if MF pulls it off well, if she tries. You shouldn't poo-poo her for trying.
Heck, I've even seen the *occasional* well-done Mary Sue.
*Grins* I'm a Vash x Meryl shipper mainly, myself, but I did start a Vash x Milly fanart. I want to finish and post it just to irk *overly staunch* Vash X Merylers like you off. *Evil grin*
*Goes back to her happy El_Gatoshippy world* - I need to do more fanwork of that pairing, I really do.
I'm not EG, but since we seem to share a brain, I feel pretty confident in stating that neither of us feel the pairings cannot be done well. Heck, we've spent two years working (...okay, sometimes being lazy and not working) on a fic with one of those pairings.
I hope you're planning on giving her actual tips about writing the fic well, rather than using this as an excuse to climb up on a holier than thou soupbox about which pairings you do and don't like...
Still, you don't need to trash her. She's my friend and I will defend her. She does need a little work with her writing, but don't we all? I think she needs encouragement, not for fandombitches to totally trash her every chance they get.
If you want to blacklist me for defending my friend, go ahead.
By the way, if this doen't show up under my username for some reason, it's because I had to change my password due to a hacker.
While I knew to which rant that post was referring, I had to click the link to remind myself who/what MF was (as MF to me means either Moxy Früvous or motherfucker). Now, perhaps if you had responded to this when I had posted it, I could tell you the reasoning behind the caps lock. As of now, I can only guess.
The last time I saw jaina in person, we discussed fic (as we are wont to do), and the subject of Vash/Milly, Knives/Meryl fics came up. These fics seem to exist to promote one of those pairings, and then hook the other up as an afterthought. Because goodness knows, the only way someone can be happy is through heterosexual coupling. We agreed that even the best fics that use these romantic pairings have huge plot holes - because these two pairings are really, really hard to explain. And we discussed the faults of hooking those four up in such a manner. And jaina said she'd like to write a rant, outlining said faults.
So maybe millyfan's post reminded me of that. Maybe I had seen too many K/Meryl, V/Milly fics, then that post, and it bugged me. Maybe I did want to give her advice, but remembered jaina had more things to say. Maybe I've read something by millyfan and didn't like her writing style or something, and thought she couldn't handle it. Whatever.
But if she would still like to write a fic, I recommend she reads jaina's rant. I think it's very well thought-out, and outlines the many faults that could occur in those pairings, though it specifically focuses on V/Milly.
I don't "blacklist" anyone. Though when my friends have a problem with someone, I'll let them talk to me, hear them out, point and laugh, advise them on what to say or do, and let them handle things themselves.
EG already said what I was thinking better (see below) but I just thought I'd clear up a few things, for the record.
1) No one is persecuting Millyfan. Seriously. I have been in contact with her over the internet many times and not once have I ever initiated it. It's too bad that she apparently feels that my rant was directed at her, but I promise, it wasn't. I don't even read her fic. I just happen to dislike the way the pairing is often written, and to quote my friend Emma, I rant to amuse myself and friends who have similar senses of humor, not because I'm truly outraged by [insert subject of rant]. If my rant was directed at Millyfan, I would've done something to bring it to her attention.
2) I can only speak for myself here, but I dislike Millyfan because of behavior she has exhibited that I found to be rather shitty. This behavior had little or nothing to do with her or my fanfiction. I'm not going to go into detail because I honestly do respect your friendship with her, but believe me when I say that any issue I have with her does not stem from what pairings either of us supports.
3) I'm not really sure what you mean by blacklisting. There's no type of "Big Name Fan" cabal in Trigun fandom (as opposed to, say, Harry Potter, source of 70% of the net's wank output) and we're not a group hivemind. If anything, I respect you more for defending someone you care about. I bear absolutely no ill will towards you.
My sympathies towards the hacking issue. I've seen friends deal with that sort of thing in the past and it's never a good time for anyone.
I've heard that you "blacklist" people. Anyway, whether you do or not, it seems like both of you have made a personal attack on MF, and are trying to bullshit your way out of it, saying "Oh, no, it was nothing PERSONAL" when you damn well know it was.
The way you should have handled this was to post over on trigunpairings giving your *polite* advice. Instead, you both badmouth a particular person.
What if I had asked for advice on writing a Vash x Milly fic? I think you probably would have given me good advice. I think you would have helped me because, for whatever reason, you seem to respect me. It seems to me that "MillyFan - we don't like her, lets rant about her and talk about how much she sucks!"
I don't think I've read anything by either of you... (EG and Jaina). I... dislike reading romance. I just... do. I do read some romance fanfics, but for the most part, I avoid anything that has romance as a primary genre. It just bores me. I can't say whether or not I respect you as writers, because I haven't read your work.
As for... human being respect - neither of you are earning it with me right now. Yes, MF has done some bad things to you, things which I advised her against, but I hate grudges, and loose respect for people who keep them and talk crap about someone behind their back (or in public).
Then, try to weasel out of it saying "Oh, it was nothing personal" when it obviously was.
Oh, well.... *Goes back to writing chapter 5 to an old fanfic that's been on hiatus* Non-shippy, as shippy isn't my forte.
You're wrong. You can say that we're personally attacking her as much as you want, but it will never be true. I had that rant partially written quite a ways before Millyfan ever posted about the pairing to trigun_pairings; I just hadn't gotten around to finishing it. I may not like her, but I don't hold her fic against her. I have one friend whose fanfiction I find to be boring and a damn blatant Mary Sue. I dislike it probably more than I dislike Millyfan's work. (I don't particularly hate her work, I just don't find it enjoyable.) And yet, we're still friends. Hell, we got to be friends because of a pretty in-depth debate on the merit of her work. Not that this makes me a saint or anything, but I'm just pointing out that quality of writing has very little to do with how I assess a person. If I was going to rant about Millyfan, I'd choose a topic like "Why you shouldn't report false abuse cases to ffnet because you're going through a `yaoi is bad' phase" or something.
I don't talk crap about Millyfan. I have no interest in convincing people to like or dislike another person; I figure people are smart enough to decide on their own, and it's none of my business besides. Yeah, I made a brief post about an ffnet review of hers that annoyed me, but I omitted her name specifically because I didn't want people to go bug her, and it's not like I went looking for her--I read review pages, I read that one, then noticed who it was by because I read too fast for my own good sometimes. Millyfan's nothing special here. I do the same to really bad fics posted on the site, and those people who throw hissy fits if they don't get a hundred million reviews like they demanded. In retrospect I should've locked that post, but I'm generally rather surprised when people outside of my immediate circle of friends have any interest in reading my journal.
The rant I wrote wasn't about Millyfan. It just wasn't. The only fics of hers I ever read weren't even romantic ones, if I call correctly--it's been a while. Since we travel in the same fandom circles, I was aware of her preference for the pairing, but as I hadn't read her fic after I decided I didn't care for her work, I have absolutely no clue whether she fell into the Milly/Vash plot issues that I dislike. I've seen quite a few fics that include the pairing that bugged me way more than anything Millyfan has written, and those are what I based my rant on. You can say over and over again that it was a personal rant directed at her, but it just wasn't and it never will become so.
This all seems to go back to the reviews that Arafel and EG left months ago and the surrounding kerfluffle. (Reviews that I had no part in, though no one seems to believe me on that.) I have no interest in debating who was wrong or right in that scenario, and I doubt you do either; it's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. But it was at that point that I decided I was tired of dealing with Millyfan. It was about that time that she stopped IMing me, and I thought that was fine. If I had wanted to go after her, to harass her with ranting, I would've named names, I would've posted to her community, and I would've read her fic so I could pick out examples from it. I did none of that. I didn't lock the post, but I generally don't unless I'm writing about something private. It's Millyfan's bad luck that she happened to publicly discuss a topic that already irked me, and was already partially written about. Hell, if she wants, I'll publicly apologize for not making it clear that it wasn't about her.
I don't understand why it is so hard for some people (not pointing a particular finger at you) to believe that I can separate fic from the person. If I have a grudge against Millyfan, I'm going about it in a pretty weird way, as I have never sought to actively engage her in discussion or anything else. Occasionally if I run across something of hers that annoys me, I might gripe about it with friends. That's nothing new under the sun.
I still don't understand the blacklist thing. Blacklist...from what, exactly? There's not a circle of supposedly elite Trigun fic writers that meet in a virtual clubhouse from which we lock people out. Yes, I'm close friends with a number of fic writers, but that's because they're cool people. We might tend to agree one certain topics, but friends tend to. I wouldn't dream of telling any of them that they must behave in a certain way towards other authors, and I'd laugh my ass off if they tried the same to me. Blacklist from what? We don't run any mailing lists, the archive I run is free and open to all, and the only lj community I run has open membership. If I was going to try and police who posts to ffnet, I'd start with the five-line netspeak fics and the Mary Sues. There's nothing to blacklist people from, even if we were so inclined. Between this and your prior misconception that I had expressed my dislike for fics with plots more layered than an I Can Read book, I really wonder about the information you're getting.
I happen to respect you because even when we've disagreed, you have generally spoken to me with courtesy and reason, I haven't noticed major hypocrisy on your part, and as far as I know, you've never lied to me. These things (or the lack of them) are why I decided I didn't feel like talking to Millyfan anymore, or poking at her in debate, and I have not. Maybe it sounds like I'm protesting the rant thing too much, but I'm a very wordy person, and what I say happens to be the truth. I'm not against pairings favored by people I don't like; I'm against bad fic, period. That's what this rant was about. That's what rants I have written in the past were about. That's what rants that will be written in the future will probably be about. I have no desire to lie to anyone about this.
Maybe it was just my misinterpretation. It just seemed like, from the nature of your posts and comments, that you were "backpedaling," as my brother puts it - when you said something that was a personal attack, then, when accused of such, you go back and say "No, no! It wasn't that! I really meant this!"
I don't know if it's the truth or not. It just seemed that way to me at the time. Maybe I was misinterpreting.
I should get out of this. I have a tendency to defend friends with blind loyalty and sometimes get hurt for it. I'll be leaving before I say something stupid or get hurt somehow.
Oh, I worded that badly. What I mean was.. the definition of "backpedaling" is "when you say one thing, are accused of saying that thing, then you try to weasel out of it by saying 'No! That's not what I meant!' "
To clear up... I'm not necessarily accusing you anymore. I honestly do not know. Just clearing up the above post because it sounds accusing, that was just me wording badly, posting in haste, and not knowing how to edit comments.
*nods* I know what you mean, I'm not offended. I'm sure it can be easy to think so without being filled in on things, and I don't blame you for caring about your friend. Go in peace, because I don't think we have a problem, and if Sassy doesn't come poking around, she wouldn't either.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2004-05-10 11:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-10 05:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-06-11 10:59 pm (UTC)Time will tell if MF pulls it off well, if she tries. You shouldn't poo-poo her for trying.
Heck, I've even seen the *occasional* well-done Mary Sue.
*Grins* I'm a Vash x Meryl shipper mainly, myself, but I did start a Vash x Milly fanart. I want to finish and post it just to irk *overly staunch* Vash X Merylers like you off. *Evil grin*
*Goes back to her happy El_Gatoshippy world* - I need to do more fanwork of that pairing, I really do.
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Date: 2004-06-13 07:54 am (UTC)We just don't think Millyfan can do it well. ^_^v
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Date: 2004-06-11 11:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-06-13 07:11 am (UTC)>^..^
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Date: 2004-06-13 05:23 pm (UTC)Re: SOUP!
Date: 2004-06-13 07:36 pm (UTC)Re: SOUP!
Date: 2004-06-13 09:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-06-13 01:09 pm (UTC)If you want to blacklist me for defending my friend, go ahead.
By the way, if this doen't show up under my username for some reason, it's because I had to change my password due to a hacker.
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Date: 2004-06-13 05:16 pm (UTC)The last time I saw
So maybe
But if she would still like to write a fic, I recommend she reads
I don't "blacklist" anyone. Though when my friends have a problem with someone, I'll let them talk to me, hear them out, point and laugh, advise them on what to say or do, and let them handle things themselves.
>^..^
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Date: 2004-06-13 05:25 pm (UTC)What are you talking about? We never do that.
That reminds me, we still have to iron out our list for the Acceptable Fics and Bitches We Hate symposium at Legal this year.
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Date: 2004-06-14 08:30 am (UTC)>^..^
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Date: 2004-06-13 05:22 pm (UTC)1) No one is persecuting Millyfan. Seriously. I have been in contact with her over the internet many times and not once have I ever initiated it. It's too bad that she apparently feels that my rant was directed at her, but I promise, it wasn't. I don't even read her fic. I just happen to dislike the way the pairing is often written, and to quote my friend Emma, I rant to amuse myself and friends who have similar senses of humor, not because I'm truly outraged by [insert subject of rant]. If my rant was directed at Millyfan, I would've done something to bring it to her attention.
2) I can only speak for myself here, but I dislike Millyfan because of behavior she has exhibited that I found to be rather shitty. This behavior had little or nothing to do with her or my fanfiction. I'm not going to go into detail because I honestly do respect your friendship with her, but believe me when I say that any issue I have with her does not stem from what pairings either of us supports.
3) I'm not really sure what you mean by blacklisting. There's no type of "Big Name Fan" cabal in Trigun fandom (as opposed to, say, Harry Potter, source of 70% of the net's wank output) and we're not a group hivemind. If anything, I respect you more for defending someone you care about. I bear absolutely no ill will towards you.
My sympathies towards the hacking issue. I've seen friends deal with that sort of thing in the past and it's never a good time for anyone.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-13 07:24 pm (UTC)The way you should have handled this was to post over on trigunpairings giving your *polite* advice. Instead, you both badmouth a particular person.
What if I had asked for advice on writing a Vash x Milly fic? I think you probably would have given me good advice. I think you would have helped me because, for whatever reason, you seem to respect me. It seems to me that "MillyFan - we don't like her, lets rant about her and talk about how much she sucks!"
I don't think I've read anything by either of you... (EG and Jaina). I... dislike reading romance. I just... do. I do read some romance fanfics, but for the most part, I avoid anything that has romance as a primary genre. It just bores me. I can't say whether or not I respect you as writers, because I haven't read your work.
As for... human being respect - neither of you are earning it with me right now. Yes, MF has done some bad things to you, things which I advised her against, but I hate grudges, and loose respect for people who keep them and talk crap about someone behind their back (or in public).
Then, try to weasel out of it saying "Oh, it was nothing personal" when it obviously was.
Oh, well.... *Goes back to writing chapter 5 to an old fanfic that's been on hiatus* Non-shippy, as shippy isn't my forte.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-13 09:48 pm (UTC)I don't talk crap about Millyfan. I have no interest in convincing people to like or dislike another person; I figure people are smart enough to decide on their own, and it's none of my business besides. Yeah, I made a brief post about an ffnet review of hers that annoyed me, but I omitted her name specifically because I didn't want people to go bug her, and it's not like I went looking for her--I read review pages, I read that one, then noticed who it was by because I read too fast for my own good sometimes. Millyfan's nothing special here. I do the same to really bad fics posted on the site, and those people who throw hissy fits if they don't get a hundred million reviews like they demanded. In retrospect I should've locked that post, but I'm generally rather surprised when people outside of my immediate circle of friends have any interest in reading my journal.
The rant I wrote wasn't about Millyfan. It just wasn't. The only fics of hers I ever read weren't even romantic ones, if I call correctly--it's been a while. Since we travel in the same fandom circles, I was aware of her preference for the pairing, but as I hadn't read her fic after I decided I didn't care for her work, I have absolutely no clue whether she fell into the Milly/Vash plot issues that I dislike. I've seen quite a few fics that include the pairing that bugged me way more than anything Millyfan has written, and those are what I based my rant on. You can say over and over again that it was a personal rant directed at her, but it just wasn't and it never will become so.
This all seems to go back to the reviews that Arafel and EG left months ago and the surrounding kerfluffle. (Reviews that I had no part in, though no one seems to believe me on that.) I have no interest in debating who was wrong or right in that scenario, and I doubt you do either; it's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. But it was at that point that I decided I was tired of dealing with Millyfan. It was about that time that she stopped IMing me, and I thought that was fine. If I had wanted to go after her, to harass her with ranting, I would've named names, I would've posted to her community, and I would've read her fic so I could pick out examples from it. I did none of that. I didn't lock the post, but I generally don't unless I'm writing about something private. It's Millyfan's bad luck that she happened to publicly discuss a topic that already irked me, and was already partially written about. Hell, if she wants, I'll publicly apologize for not making it clear that it wasn't about her.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-13 09:48 pm (UTC)I still don't understand the blacklist thing. Blacklist...from what, exactly? There's not a circle of supposedly elite Trigun fic writers that meet in a virtual clubhouse from which we lock people out. Yes, I'm close friends with a number of fic writers, but that's because they're cool people. We might tend to agree one certain topics, but friends tend to. I wouldn't dream of telling any of them that they must behave in a certain way towards other authors, and I'd laugh my ass off if they tried the same to me. Blacklist from what? We don't run any mailing lists, the archive I run is free and open to all, and the only lj community I run has open membership. If I was going to try and police who posts to ffnet, I'd start with the five-line netspeak fics and the Mary Sues. There's nothing to blacklist people from, even if we were so inclined. Between this and your prior misconception that I had expressed my dislike for fics with plots more layered than an I Can Read book, I really wonder about the information you're getting.
I happen to respect you because even when we've disagreed, you have generally spoken to me with courtesy and reason, I haven't noticed major hypocrisy on your part, and as far as I know, you've never lied to me. These things (or the lack of them) are why I decided I didn't feel like talking to Millyfan anymore, or poking at her in debate, and I have not. Maybe it sounds like I'm protesting the rant thing too much, but I'm a very wordy person, and what I say happens to be the truth. I'm not against pairings favored by people I don't like; I'm against bad fic, period. That's what this rant was about. That's what rants I have written in the past were about. That's what rants that will be written in the future will probably be about. I have no desire to lie to anyone about this.
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Date: 2004-06-13 10:06 pm (UTC)I don't know if it's the truth or not. It just seemed that way to me at the time. Maybe I was misinterpreting.
I should get out of this. I have a tendency to defend friends with blind loyalty and sometimes get hurt for it. I'll be leaving before I say something stupid or get hurt somehow.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-13 10:10 pm (UTC)To clear up... I'm not necessarily accusing you anymore. I honestly do not know. Just clearing up the above post because it sounds accusing, that was just me wording badly, posting in haste, and not knowing how to edit comments.
no subject
Date: 2004-06-14 04:25 am (UTC)